My Sabbath Day

After preaching on Sabbath rest last Sunday I sought to live out the teaching on Monday (my day off). Years ago I heard Pastor Phil preach on Sabbath rest, and so it is not a new idea for me; however, I realized throughout the day how I had become lax in my devotion.

Please hear me. I am not arguing for a legalism in regards to the Sabbath, and if you listen to the teaching I hope that is clear. I do, however, feel taking a day to devote mind and body to rest and worship important for our spiritual growth. I know it's hard to hear my wife's voice if I never stop to listen. How much more God's?

As I went through my Monday, here are some observances I had:

Preparation for Sabbath rest is as important as Sabbath rest. I had gotten into the habit of taking care of a lot of business on my Mondays--paying bills, running errands, checking email, etc. I get my email on my phone and we just had a dishwasher break down and my daughter needed a haircut, so I kept leaning toward "taking care of business." Had I spent some time preparing for the Sabbath, I could have rescheduled the hair appt and the trip to Home Depot. It was all I could do to keep from checking my email throughout the day on my phone. I did, however, find great joy in saying, "No, I'm not going to do this or that." But the leaning to want to accomplish something was huge. I like to accomplish stuff.

Prayer, of course, seemed an important piece of a Sabbath rest, but again I didn't really spend enough time in preparation. Let me explain. I like to find time to be still in my prayer life. I like to sit and relax, close my eyes, light a candle, focus on my breathing and spend time in silent listening in addition to petitioning God for my requests. I began that process in the morning around 7:30, but then the dogs started barking and needed to be let out and then my son woke up, etc. Soon silence was a lot harder to come by. I think next Monday I will attempt this silent prayer earlier in the morning. I did get to spend time in my daily Bible study and found edification in that.

Recharging my inner engine is part of the goal of every Monday for me. Of course, this means different things to different people. I am an introvert in many ways, so I like to spend time alone reading a book at some coffee shop in the Twin Cities where no one knows me. Other people need to be around others, of course, and I would encourage all of us to prioritize whatever it is that recharges our soul. While I didn't get time to read much on my Sabbath, my parents were in town and my son and I got a chance to go out to lunch with them. My parents are wonderfully encouraging people, and so they helped charge my battery a bit. I know all of us have people who build us up and people who tear us down. While we are called to be in community with both types of people, I would encourage all of us to reserve our Sabbath rest for people who fire us up rather than the opposite.

Unplugging is also going to be important for my family and me on these days. Mondays don't work as good Sabbath rest days for the rest of my family, so Sunday's will be that day for the rest of them (except my wife works on Sundays too...hmmm...we'll have to figure that out). Anyway, we announced to the kids our Sundays will be unplugged for now on. We had started using Tuesdays as unplugged last spring, but then got out of the habit during the summer. Of course, the kids loved the idea...NOT! But I think they will look back on this value later in their lives and appreciate it. We're also cutting the cable this fall so...

Anyway, that's just a bit of what I learned as I tried to process Sabbath rest in my own context. Again, please know I am not arguing for some legalism here. However, we should remember that Jesus, the disciples, the Apostle Paul all observed a Sabbath rest in their weeks. It is also the precedent in church history. I hope you will join me and the Church fathers and mothers as we seek to redeem time once every 7 days.

Comments

[Linda]

Pastor Brad,
That was an interesting sabbath day description. I was wondering if you think a sabbath should be different for people who are in ministry versus people who are not?

I was thinking that people who aren't in ministry are supposed to be working for God on the sabbath because the rest of the week we're working for ourselves. For people in ministry they are always working for God. So it makes sense that they should have a rest from that.

So should I be resting from everything on the sabbath or just my own work?

[passionate]

I don't think that desiring to keep a Sabbath rest is legalism. It would be if it's embraced as a way to add to or improve upon one's position of favor with God or salvation through Christ.

It must be very difficult to be a pastor! I'm sure that you get it on all sides, Brad. Whatever you minister on can be criticized as too liberal or too legal. Then you get someone like me who flip-flops from both angles!

Anyway, we (the church) of course are not under any law, but the law of liberty and love. The Sabbath rest, as Paul explains, is obtained only through our faith in the work & righteousness of Christ. Jesus is our Sabbath!

It is beneficial though, and there seems to be a cyclical clock of sorts built into our universe that begs us to chill-out periodically. I think that the Jewish law of Sabbath, like all of God's wisdom, can be good for us (as you pointed out) and should become to us an; "I will" rather than a "thou shalt". This of course is God's end desire for everything which concerns us. To win-over our desires to follow what's good and right for us and learn to always trust that 'Father knows best'!

I'm curious as to where you base the idea that Paul 'religiously' observed the Sabbath? He of course became "all things to all men" as he ministered to the Jews when they met in their synagogues.

BTW - does anyone else think that the sanctuary server is the slowest on the www?

[Linda]

I've been doing my daily readings and I came across these verses regarding the Sabbath in the Book of Isaiah. I'm really glad that I found these verses because I was wondering what we who are in the secular world are supposed to do on the Sabbath. If we're just supposed to rest on the Sabbath then when are we supposed to be working for God?

So here are the versus I found:

"Keep the Sabbath day holy. Don’t pursue our own interests on that day, but enjoy the Sabbath and speak of it with delight as the Lord’s holy day. Honor the Sabbath in everything you do on that day, and don’t follow your own desires or talk idly. Then the Lord will be your delight. I will give you great honor and satisfy you with the inheritance I promised to your ancestor Jacob. I, the Lord, have spoken!” [Isaiah 58:13-14]

So I'm thinking that the Sabbath is a time to puruse God's interest - not our own. Its also a time for rest and refreshment. One thing that I'm wondering about is whether participating in church activities e.g volunteering might be "working for God" but at the same time prevent me from getting a good Sabbath rest. I think its definitely possible to become too involved in church to rest. This is probably not God's will.

So, I guess there's a reason why the Bible talks about the Sabbath vaguely. We're supposed to keep the Sabbath holy - but what does THAT mean? I think it means that God wants each of us to individually determine how our Sabbaths should look and that we can't be too legalistic.

That works for me!

[Kate]

I think God had it right when He took a day to rest and recharge. We all need to do that.

Can you elaborate more on what you mean by "focus on my breathing" and "spend time in silent listening?" That's a concept I'm not familiar with.

[Linda]

Kate,
I don't think you need to worry that Pastor Brad is talking about some eastern mysticism or anything like that. I think he's just describing contemplative prayer. I do that sometimes. As I go deeper and deeper into prayer I gradually feel God's presence more and more. He becomes more and more real. For me, its kind of like unpeeling an onion or passing through a series of doors into an inner sanctuary. That's where I go for healing, forgiveness, advise, and just being with my Father. I think He just likes to BE with us - and we don't have to worry about doing anything. Its just being with Him that matters.

[Kate]

Since you responded to my question, I’ve been doing some research on contemplative prayer. I’ve read information and thoughts on the subject by those who promote it as well as those who warn against it. In doing so, I came across an individual (Roger Oakland) who was questioning contemplative prayer based on what he’d read by one of the promoters of the practice:

“Richard Foster, one of the most well known promoters of contemplative prayer, claims there is reason to be cautious. Quoting from his book Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home (Richard Foster, Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home, San Francisco, CA: Harper, 1992, First Edition p. 157.)

"I also want to give a word of precaution. In the silent contemplation of God we are entering deeply into the spiritual realm, and there is such a thing as supernatural guidance that is not divine guidance. While the Bible does not give us a lot of information on the nature of the spiritual world, we do know… there are various orders of spiritual beings, and some of them are definitely not in cooperation with God and his way! … But for now I want to encourage you to learn and practice prayers of protection… “All dark and evil spirits must now leave.”

I cannot find a single place in the Bible where we are instructed to pray a prayer of protection before we pray. The fact that Foster recognizes contemplative prayer can open the door to the fallen spirit world is very revealing.”

In my research, it seems that these early church fathers (Thomas Merton, Thomas Keating, Basil Pennington, etc.--from whom many are looking to for guidance in contemplative prayer), have borrowed from the Eastern practices of meditation and introduced it to Christianity.

Richard Foster says the following about Thomas Merton (Richard Foster and Emilie Griffin, Spiritual Classics, San Francisco, CA: Harper, 2000, First Edition, p. 17.):

"Thomas Merton has perhaps done more than any other twentieth-century figure to make the life of prayer widely known and understood… His interest in contemplation led him to investigate prayer forms in Eastern religion. Zen masters from Asia regarded him as the preeminent authority on their kind of prayer in the United States."

Richard Foster also has this to say (Richard Foster, Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home, San Francisco, CA: Harper, 1992, First Edition p. 156.):

At the onset I need to give a word of warning, a little like the warning labels on medicine bottles. Contemplative prayer is not for the novice. I do not say this about other forms of prayer. All are welcome, regardless of proficiency or expertise, to enter freely into adoration and meditation and intercession and a host of other approaches to prayer. But contemplation is different. While we are all precious in the eyes of God, we are all not equally ready to listen to “God’s speech in his wondrous, terrible, gentle, loving, all embracing silence.”

Be careful what you’re opening yourself up to. We must compare everything that is presented to us against the Bible. I pray that you will do your own due diligence on this topic and come to your own conclusion.

[Linda]

Kate,
That was a good post. Actually I have read Richard Foster's book on prayer that you referenced. Pastor Brad lent it to me when I asked him for a good book on prayer.

You are right that people need to be cautious and there are spiritual forces out there that are not of God. But I also think that those spiritual forces cannot tolerate being in God's presence. So I believe that these forces tend to retreat when a Chrisitian is praying to the Father in the name of Jesus with the help of the Holy Spirit.

You commented that you don't think the Bible talks about praying a prayer of protection before we pray. I "contemplated" what you said and I think I have an answer for you. I'm quoting from Matthew Chapter 6 where Jesus teaches his disciples to pray:

Matthew Chaper 6 (New Living Translation)
9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.'

To me, Jesus was teaching us how to pray - not what to pray. So each one of these verses addresses a prayer subject. So I think that "deliver us from the evil one" is clearly a prayer of protection from Satan and his forces. Of course, we are free to pray in more depth about each of these subjects.

[Kate]

Linda:

Thanks for your post. I've been on vacation so I'm just getting around to responding.

While there is nothing inherently wrong with prayer and contemplation--the bible instructs us to do both--in my research about contemplative prayer, it seems those who promote it are always talking about how you should still your mind, focus on your breathing, etc. Jesus clearly did not teach this.

You stated that the Lord’s Prayer teaches us HOW to pray, not WHAT to pray. If he advocated contemplative prayer, he would have told us exactly how to focus on our breathing, repeat a phrase or word, and empty our mind. And in the Lord’s prayer where it says “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil”--it’s actually reaffirming that God has promised to keep us from any temptation that is greater than what we can handle (1 Cor. 10:13). Temptation literally means a test, not always a solicitation to do evil.

I listened to an interview of a former New Ager (Brian Flynn), who was involved in transcendental meditation before he came to Christ. He says that the techniques used in contemplative prayer match those of transcendental meditation (pagan spirituality). You're basically putting yourself into a trance.

He mentioned there was an article a couple of years ago in Newsweek that highlighted a study that research scientists conducted on 2 Franciscan nuns who were practicing contemplative prayer and 2 Buddhists who were practicing transcendental meditation. They somehow measured the brainwaves of both sets of individuals and found that everyone's brains were affected in the same way even though they were supposedly doing different practices.

If Richard Foster recommends that you pray a prayer of protection prior to contemplative prayer and you are saying that evil forces cannot be in God’s presence, then I would question if you can be in the presence of God during contemplative prayer.

For more information about the dangers of contemplative prayer, Brian Flynn’s book is called Running Against the Wind - The Transformation of a New Age Medium and His Warning to The Church. His website is www.onetruthministries.com.

[Linda]

Kate,
Thanks for your post. I thought some more about what you said and I believe I have some verses for you to consider. These verses come from Acts 10:1-16. The story is about how Peter came to encounter Cornelius, a Gentile. The Bible states that Peter "fell into a trance" when he was praying on a rooftop. What do you make of these verses? Thanks.
Linda
___________________________________

Acts 10:1-16 (New Living Translation)

Cornelius Calls for Peter
In Caesarea there lived a Roman army officer named Cornelius, who was a captain of the Italian Regiment. He was a devout, God-fearing man, as was everyone in his household. He gave generously to the poor and prayed regularly to God. One afternoon about three o’clock, he had a vision in which he saw an angel of God coming toward him. “Cornelius!” the angel said. Cornelius stared at him in terror. “What is it, sir?” he asked the angel.

And the angel replied, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have been received by God as an offering! Now send some men to Joppa, and summon a man named Simon Peter. He is staying with Simon, a tanner who lives near the seashore.”

As soon as the angel was gone, Cornelius called two of his household servants and a devout soldier, one of his personal attendants. He told them what had happened and sent them off to Joppa.

Peter Visits Cornelius
The next day as Cornelius’s messengers were nearing the town, Peter went up on the flat roof to pray. It was about noon, and he was hungry. But while a meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw the sky open, and something like a large sheet was let down by its four corners. In the sheet were all sorts of animals, reptiles, and birds. Then a voice said to him, “Get up, Peter; kill and eat them.” “No, Lord,” Peter declared. “I have never eaten anything that our Jewish laws have declared impure and unclean.”

But the voice spoke again: “Do not call something unclean if God has made it clean.” The same vision was repeated three times. Then the sheet was suddenly pulled up to heaven.

[Kate]

Linda:

After considering your post and the passages you provided, here's my thoughts...

It's important to note that in the Bible, visions were a way that God revealed Himself and His will to people. The focus of the passages is not the trance. Peter and Cornelius did not need to put themselves into a trance in order to receive the visions (i.e., the revelations) from God. Again, I defer to the fact that there are no instructions in the Bible that show us or that Jesus clearly never taught the disciples how to empty their mind, focus on breathing, repeat a word or phrase, etc. In fact, we’re told “not to use vain repetitions as the heathen do.”

For all we know, Peter’s praying at the time he received the vision may have absolutely nothing to do with the fact he went into a trance and received the vision. It’s possible that God could have had Peter walking down a road instead of praying on a roof. In Peter’s vision, God was showing him through the laws about food (since Peter was hungry at the time he was praying) that Gentiles were to be allowed in the New Testament Church — “What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.” We should always be looking for a spiritual application.

I’ve heard it said that when we participate in an activity and we’re wondering if we should be doing it, it’s not God’s job to prove to us what’s wrong with it—it’s our job to prove to God what’s right about it. I think this is good advice. Since the Catholic monks who practiced this got the idea from Eastern mystics, to me, it’s clear that this is not a God-honoring practice. We are too quick to borrow pagan ideas and "Christianize" them. It may be the intention of the individuals who practice this to get closer to God, but I would argue you can’t please Him with the traditions of men.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12
9When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Thanks, Linda, for your consideration of my thoughts.

[Linda]

Kate,
I think its wonderful that we can have this discussion on the Sanctuary website. I found these verses where Paul is giving his defense to the Jews in Jerusalem. Paul describes how he was in the Temple praying when he fell into a trance. It was then that he saw and spoke with Jesus. These verses are from Acts Chapter 22. Do you think there can be any connection between Peter's experience and Paul's experience? Also, I wonder if Jesus still talks to people like He spoke with Paul. Do you think this can still happen today?

Acts 22:1-21 (New Living Translation)

“Brothers and esteemed fathers,” Paul said, “listen to me as I offer my defense.” When they heard him speaking in their own language, the silence was even greater.

Then Paul said, “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, and I was brought up and educated here in Jerusalem under Gamaliel. As his student, I was carefully trained in our Jewish laws and customs. I became very zealous to honor God in everything I did, just like all of you today. And I persecuted the followers of the Way, hounding some to death, arresting both men and women and throwing them in prison. The high priest and the whole council of elders can testify that this is so. For I received letters from them to our Jewish brothers in Damascus, authorizing me to bring the Christians from there to Jerusalem, in chains, to be punished.

“As I was on the road, approaching Damascus about noon, a very bright light from heaven suddenly shone down around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’

“‘Who are you, lord?’ I asked.

“And the voice replied, ‘I am Jesus the Nazarene, the one you are persecuting.’ The people with me saw the light but didn’t understand the voice speaking to me.

“I asked, ‘What should I do, Lord?’

“And the Lord told me, ‘Get up and go into Damascus, and there you will be told everything you are to do.’

“I was blinded by the intense light and had to be led by the hand to Damascus by my companions. A man named Ananias lived there. He was a godly man, deeply devoted to the law, and well regarded by all the Jews of Damascus. He came and stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, regain your sight.’ And that very moment I could see him!

“Then he told me, ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and hear him speak. For you are to be his witness, telling everyone what you have seen and heard. What are you waiting for? Get up and be baptized. Have your sins washed away by calling on the name of the Lord.’

“After I returned to Jerusalem, I was praying in the Temple and fell into a trance. I saw a vision of Jesus saying to me, ‘Hurry! Leave Jerusalem, for the people here won’t accept your testimony about me.’

“‘But Lord,’ I argued, ‘they certainly know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. And I was in complete agreement when your witness Stephen was killed. I stood by and kept the coats they took off when they stoned him.’

“But the Lord said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles!’”

[Kate]

Linda:

I suppose it's possible that God could speak to an individual as he did with Peter and Paul. Since we now have the scriptures (God's word to us), I think it's less likely.

I pray to God without going into a trance. One thing I noticed in my research about contemplative prayer is that some people speak of a feeling that is almost euphoric during and after. I wonder if this is the draw for this practice.

[passionate]

Most of my devotional time of late has been spent in meditation. Not of the pseudo spiritual flavor; i.c., reciting a mantra while in a lotus position, but simply thinking through a scripture passage, topic, a person or situation I'm praying for. I think this is how we can hear from God & develop the gifts of the Spirit.

For instance, I've recently spent time 'in prayer' rehearsing how I could have better handled a witnessing encounter that didn't go just right. I more carefully thought through the subject of discussion & where the person was coming from. Shortly thereafter I got another opportunity which hit the mark & went much better!

I personally think this is closer to fellowshipping with & sharing what's on God's heart than is coming to Him with a list of things to ask Him for.

[Kate]

Yesterday, someone shared this with me (acronym to help her remember how to pray)

A - Adoration
C - Confessing our sins to God
T - Thank God for all we have
S - Supplication (petitions)

I thought it was pretty neat!

[passionate]

hi kate, it's been awhile!

do you ever just sit before God without an agenda, just to say "hey", spill your guts with Him & stuff? i believe that's what His intention was when He created us; to be our abba father. kind of like adam & eve. they didn't have any needs/supplications or people to minister to. they just 'walked with Him in the cool of the day'. "one thing is necessary" said Jesus.

i know you know this, but if you're like me, i can easily forget & sacrafice relationship to religion.

[Linda]

Folks,
I found this funny thing on prayer. I hope you enjoy it. It made me laugh.

http://abetterhope.com/hope/relationship.html

[Kate]

Hey, Passionate...

Good to hear from you.

I typically do my Bible reading and prayer each morning before leaving the house for work and then generally, I'm talking to Him all day long--whether it be to ask for help with a work situation or just notice His beautiful handiwork as I encounter it and thank Him for it.

I don't think there's anything "religious" about that, is there? The Bible says we should "search for Him early"--so that's what I do.

[passionate]

kate - whatever you're doing it's working for you, cause you're one fired-up sister!

i pretty much do the same thing.
i'm just learning to lighten-up a bit on formulas & such & just tryng to enjoy god.

[Kate]

The ACTS acronym is similar to the format of the Lord's prayer. I was just throwing it out there for anyone who's confused about how we should be praying.

Have a great weekend!

[passionate]

yes, i noticed that it was similar. hope you know i didn't mean anything personal by my comments. really just trying to strike-up a conversation more than anything.

so what else has been happening, kate?

[Kate]

Thanks for the clarification, Passionate.

Not too many major things going on... Just following the political race and viewing the world's events in light of Biblical prophesy. Very interesting, indeed!

How about you?

[passionate]

Kate-
Nothing really new with me either. I work part-time at the excel so I was at the convention. It was interesting, but I’m glad it’s over. getting ready to work wild games. that’s a lot of fun!

can we talk more about ‘imaginative prayer’/meditation? I promise to try & not be a know-it-all snob, but still talk about what I’ve learned & the good it’s done for me.

Remember Jesus’ saying; “if you ask for a fish will he give you a serpent?” i try to keep that in mind when asking God to show me things.
Anyhow, I’ve often heard that imagination/meditation regarding prayer was demonic & originated with eastern religion. However, I’m learning that our western culture is more atheistic & unbelieving than any other that’s ever lived. Consequently, we’re the most spiritually dead & unimaginative. That’s a good thing of course when it comes to the occult & stuff, but it has taken a big toll on our ability to believe for the supernatural & experience all that God has to offer us in the west. I think our spiritual growth has been stunted because of our over-stimulization of media & lack of imagination/meditation/visualization of our spiritual desires. Tell the truth; is it easier to imagine a sexual fantasy, or obtaining an answer to prayer? These are probably the reasons why we’re not experiencing ‘dreams & visions’ like the eastern/first century church.

I think that like everything good, imagination/meditation comes from God, but when allowed to do so, the devil perverts them for his purposes.

What do you think of my theory? Do you think me a know-it-all snob for saying so? Or, do you think me a deceived liberal? I asked, therefore feel free to lay it on me. I consider you a knowledgeable sister in the Lord, Kate!

[Kate]

Passionate:

I'm flattered that you're interested in my opinion at all--I know I can come across as a know-it-all snob as well. Then again, maybe you're just interested because it seems like you and I are the only ones having any conversation on this blog! :) We’ll have to discuss politics sometime…

Please point me to the scripture where it talks about the serpent and the fish. I’m drawing a blank on that one. I’m reading the Bible using a program that goes through it in a chronological fashion, so it’s been a while since I’ve spent any great length of time in the NT.

I’m finishing up Ezekiel, and I was peeking ahead into the smaller prophetic books this morning. I came across this verse: “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.” From my perspective, all it has taken is for one generation (the 60’s is what I’m thinking) to not teach their children about God and his statutes. This was proven in the OT. Remember the women who were weeping for Tammuz? God was NOT happy about that.

You mentioned that “our western culture is more atheistic & unbelieving than any other that’s ever lived. Consequently, we’re the most spiritually dead & unimaginative.” You’re right, this is a good thing from an occult perspective. The trouble is, there are tons of people out there who are not able to discern the difference between what’s of God and what is not. There are tons of people who think that if the fad of the day has the word “Christian” in front of it or that if it’s promoted by the church, it “must be okay.” Nonsense! Paul said as soon as he was gone there would be wolves entering the church in sheep’s clothing.

The NT talks about how one of the most prominent signs of the end of the times just prior to Jesus’ return will be that of apostasy (false doctrine). I’d say we’re neck high in false doctrine these days. Anything goes. That’s the problem. It is not my intention to hurt anyone’s feelings when I say these things. Jesus said it was going to happen.

I’m not sure that we’re supposed to experience dreams and visions as they did back then. We’ve got the Bible now—God’s word to us. Besides, Jesus’ last words were “it is finished.” I might be wrong on this, but I think that can also mean there is no more need for “prophets/dreams/visions” as there were back then. When he died on the cross, he gave us everything we need. That’s not to say that someone can’t have a dream and it be of God. The problem is when people start thinking they must not be spiritual enough or close enough to God if they’re not having visions or dreams. That’s what concerns me about contemplative prayer. People are looking for an experience or feeling—if they feel good (and don’t you think Satan is smart enough to make it a pleasurable experience?) it must be from God, right? Not necessarily.

This hogwash (sorry for my anger here) that the Bible can’t be understood by us is a complete and utter lie from the pit of hell. And there are so many people buying into the lie. Either you trust that God inspired his Word and was able to preserve it or you don’t. Remember, by faith Abraham was saved.

My pastor is doing a sermon series on the differences between all the Bible versions. It’s very eye opening. The most popular versions are leaving out entire verses that tell us how we can obtain true salvation, taking out the saving blood of Jesus, taking out the deity of Jesus, denying the virgin birth of Jesus, among other disturbing things. And most people are completely oblivious to it.

I’m one of those individuals who, for the most part, errs on the side of caution. I’m a black and white kinda girl, because I believe God made it that easy for us. Do this, don’t do that, etc. Unfortunately, there are too many who don’t want to play by those rules. I’d rather live by those rules than risk my eternity. This life is just a vapor in the grand scheme of time.

I’d like to hear more about your theory…

[passionate]

Kate – Thank you for answering me so quickly & I’m ecstatic to exchange ideas with you! I’m always interested to talk to anyone about God/theology, but it’s particularly enjoyable with you!

The ‘fish for serpent’ verse is from Lk 11:10 – 13.
These passages are particularly fitting in our discussion, because Jesus is prophetically forewarning us not to mistake the workings of the Holy Spirit for demonic activity. This is exactly what many of the most respected conservative bible teachers of our time do. They claim that the baptism & gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer necessary because we have the complete bible now. Some go as far as to claim that speaking in tongues is witchcraft. They base this all on one verse of the bible in 1 cor 13. Never mind that Paul is clearly referring to our glorified state in heaven in the context, not the canonized holy writ that wasn’t even available at the time of Paul’s writing. Ironically, these are the same stuffed collars that tell us constantly not to base doctrine from one passage! Sorry for my passion here, but this subject is in context with our discussion of meditation. I believe that both issues are pooh-poohed from the same folks. These Spirit quenchers want to snuff-out our freedom to think & ‘imagine’ the glorious workings of God through the Spirit in our lives.

You are correct about the warnings not to heed false doctrine & so much the more near the end. However Kate, I argue that much of the false doctrine is coming from the least likely sources. This is the very dangerous & deceptive aspect of it. It's not the flaming liberals who could possibly infilterate & influence sincere believers. Consider those who Jesus & Paul had the most difficulty communicating the good news of the gospel to. Consider who Paul warned of as the “concision” always trying to bind-up the newly saved Christians with fear, rules & regulations, while Paul was trying to set them free to worship Christ ‘in Spirit & truth’.

I agree with you & much of what you say. However, I get the impression that you may be giving more credit to the forces of darkness than you do to God. I would like to encourage you that your position in Christ is much more secure than the doctrine you’re receiving leads you to believe.

BTW – As far as dreams, visions & the end times go, read what Peter said in Acts 2:17.

[Linda]

Kate and Passionate,
I am not participating in the discussion but I have been following it.

Here's my two cents on the subject. But of course this is just my opinion.

I have researched some biblical concepts on-line and I was reading that the original Greek uses two different words that have both been translated into "Word" in English. One is "logos" and the other is "rhema." I've read that "logos" means written word and "rhema" means spoken word.

So to me, I think "logos" is God's written word to us - the Bible. However, God also uses "rhema" to speak to us on a day to day basis. He uses "rhema" to guide us, express his love, correction, and anything else a Father would say to a beloved child.

I simply do not believe that God our Father dropped off a book called the Bible with us - and left us alone with no further guidance. To me, this isn't biblical either because Jesus clearly told us that the Holy Spirit would come and remain with us and that He would be our counselor.

That said, I also believe that God's "rhema" never contradicts his "logos." So when I feel that God has spoken to me, I do try to test what I've heard against the Bible. That's how I try to discern whether something I've heard is from God and not from Satan or my own mind.